Welcome to Retail Checks and Balances, a podcast that takes you behind the scenes of the bustling world of commerce and culinary delights to help you grow your business and win. Join us as we explore the fascinating stories, trends, and challenges that shape the retail and hospitality industry, from cozy corner cafes to sprawling shopping malls and everything in between. And now, here's your host, Kevin Spencer.

Okay, welcome again. We have a great guest today on Retail Checks and Balances, Chris Peterson. He's the co-founder of Lifemind.ai, the buzzword AI, which I love hearing these days. And he's the author of a book, very interesting book called Red and Blue Customers. Chris, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Kevin. Glad to be here. Let's kick right in. I mean, give us a nice introduction and background of yourself.

Kevin Spencer 

Yeah, sure. So I've spent decades in marketing. I founded and sold two digital marketing agencies. And throughout my career, I became very interested in customer insight. And I always, I was always curious about why people buy what they buy, which is really at the heart of marketing itself. If we don't know why people buy what they buy, then it's hard to sell them stuff. So whether it's e-commerce or physical retail or anything else. And back several years ago in 2020, I came across some research from Pew Research which allowed liberal and conservative customers to tell each other through a survey what they wanted the other side to know about them. And it was open-ended. They had these very interesting answers. And I read them. And what struck me, and there were like hundreds of responses, it was very unique research from Pew, because normally you're just getting data and charts And I read all the responses. And what struck me was that these were two very authentic groups of people who genuinely believed in different visions for the world. And what struck me was or the question that struck me at the time was, if this is true, then how does this not affect what people buy? And so I dove into this topic and researched it. And I first asked myself, do liberal and conservative customers buy different things? And I quickly found out there's a mountain of evidence that says, yes, they actually buy different products, not exclusively, but the trends are there. They align with different brands. They consume different media. And it struck me. It's like, well, we don't look at this. It's something that's kind of in front of us every day. We experience it in our lives. And yet we don't apply this recognition to our businesses and in the form of customer insight and optimizing our businesses and improving marketing. So, for example, like some quick examples, you know, not Q. a Harris poll every year publishes a list of brands that tend to align more with liberal customers or conservative customers. And for liberal customers, some of them are Target, Toyota, Nike, and Honda. For conservative customers, some of them are Home Depot, General Motors, and USAA, which sells to the military families. And that struck me as very interesting. And on that list, there were only a couple of companies that actually appeared on both lists, meaning that there was trust in that brand from both groups. It was like 12 or 13 out of the 15 were totally different. And then I started looking at different types of products and media consumption. So if you just look at television shows, the TV shows, How to Get Away with Murder, Modern Family, Doctor Who, Outlander, Game of Thrones are watched almost exclusively by liberal customers. And the TV shows SEAL Team, Last Man Standing, New Amsterdam, Chicago Fire, and The Good Doctor are watched almost exclusively by conservative customers. So here you have people aligning with different brands, buying different products. Retail footprints is a really interesting thing to look at, which we've looked at. You look at organizations like Whole Foods and IKEA, which clearly have probably more liberal footprints. And they do, because we've analyzed it, whereas Walmart and most fast food have more conservative footprints. And so then the question then becomes like, well, okay, how do you understand the distinctions between these two groups so that you can apply it in your business, right? So the next step in researching the book, once it was clear to me that these are two different markets, again, not exclusively, but very strong trends. It's like, OK, well, how do we how do we understand the two? How do we how do we understand the values? And the thing that struck me was this wasn't about politics at all. It wasn't about policy or politicians or voting. It was about worldview. And it was about worldview as liberal or conservative and two vision, two ways of seeing the world and different sets of values and the values are not controversial. So what I what I ended up doing is diving into like, well, what are these values that define these two groups? And I found a mountain of evidence in social psychology, social anthropology and cultural geography, not political science, where there was a lot of research in the differences between these two groups that once I read these, I realized, oh, wow, this could be applied to business quite easily. This can be translated quite well. And then once I did that, and we can talk about some examples of those, once I did that, it was like, okay, now let's talk about, let me think about how to apply this to the business in a very practical way so that people can align to one or both markets in a non-controversial, low-risk manner. Because again, it's not about invoking politics. It's not about waving some issue in front of people and polarizing them. It's about understanding how to make a product fit better into a customer's life based on how they see the world. And that becomes an interesting exercise as opposed to looking at customers under a microscope like we typically do, like I have for decades. It's like, put yourself in their shoes and look at your business versus being in our shoes in the business and looking at the customers. And that really turned me around after all these years about how to think about customer insight.

Chris Peterson

When you say about that analysis, that deep dive analysis, are you saying it's different now because you're using different tools and different data to combine to get that intelligence? I mean, help me understand that because that's so interesting how you position that in the first place.

Yeah, so the analysis, well, first of all, the breakdown of the two groups comes out of a lot of research studies. And honestly, it was a lot of time spent reading through these things, academic studies, which was not always perfectly enjoyable. Thank God for the abstract at the start of a research study, because some of these people can write better than others. But What I did was I formulated 27 distinct values, 20 illustrate differences between the two groups, and seven actually unite the two groups and can be considered American values that are rooted in original immigration and what actually makes Americans American. But the distinctions are things like perceptions of the future Like, you know, liberal customers, they are less satisfied with the present, want to engineer a new future and make it better. Conservative customers are more happy with the present and would just assume it not change and the future is more known to them because it should look a lot like what it looks like today. Now, that sounds very theoretical, but it has huge implications in terms of selling innovative products. If you want to sell something very new and innovative, you go to the more liberal customers. I mean, that is just where you go. They're more urban. They're not that hard to find. But if you want to transition into a much bigger market, if your product is proven successful, you've got to be able to appeal to the conservative customers because they will buy a new, innovative product, but only after it's proven and it's established itself and it is seen in their environment. And that ends up becoming an interesting strategy for scale. So, you know, and then, you know, with regard to retail, it depends on the types of products you're selling, about who you want to appeal to, where your retail footprint is and who you're selling to and things like that. But other, you know, other values involve self-moderation and self-image. Like if you think about marketing materials that marketers develop, that I helped develop for decades, you know, often This material is developed by marketing departments, marketing agencies, which in our own research. working with OpenSecrets.org, about two-thirds of marketing people are liberal versus two-thirds of salespeople are more conservative, which, you know, the question has been asked, why don't the two groups get along all the time? And well, there's your answer. But, you know, there's strengths in both, but there's a lot of marketing material developed by more liberal people that is then projected onto the market. And one of the ways you can pick it up is you can just look at the people in the ads, their expressions, how they're acting. The research shows that people can identify with great accuracy, have a great intuition for who is liberal and who is conservative just by looking at them, seeing facial reactions and other emotional reactions. And in marketing materials, you know, it's not that uncommon to see somebody jumping in the air, exuberant as a customer, because maybe they just got a new insurance policy. And that is a cue to a more liberal customer. Someone who's super self-expressive versus a more conservative customer who will be into more self-moderation. Now, these are big generalizations. These are, they don't explain everybody, but in marketing, and in markets, whether it's retail or national e-commerce, we're looking for trends. We're looking for insights that we can use to describe groups of people, not every individual.

So when you say the two sides, is there a specific strategy of who you go for first in terms of proving the solution?

Well, I think it's the first step in all of this is actually really easy that no one takes. And a listener could do this today, which is to ask yourself, are my customers today liberal or conservative? And it's a question that I've never seen a company ask. And of course, it's the first thing we do is we say, OK, we need to look at some customer data because we can do it in a minute and discover this. And coincidentally, we're working with two companies right now. One has overwhelmingly liberal customers. One has overwhelmingly conservative customers. One is a very well-known mobile app. Another one is in the fitness business. And putting that on the table, you then start to think about, okay, why do we have these types of customers? And by the way, I've never seen a group of customers that was split 50-50. There's a misconception today that that businesses are neutral and there's no such thing because every business will always project probably a little bit more of a liberal set of values or conservative. It often depends on who the founder was, what the culture is at the business, where they're located. It's not a conspiracy. It's just human nature to do this kind of thing. So you want to look at your customers and determine what's the skew there. And we've seen big skews and small skews. And then get into like, well, is that because of how we're marketing? Is that representative of the market? And is that the audience we should be going after? And the answer is usually, it's probably the audience you want to go after. Now, there's one example where I looked at the data of a fairly well-known women's shoe company. And if on the face of it, if you looked at their website, there was e-commerce and retail. And on the face of it, you got the sense this was liberal values being projected. And they had three retail locations. I think it was Seattle, San Francisco, and New York. So all three very liberal areas. But when we looked at the customer data, it actually showed that a strong majority of customers were conservative. And that was a really interesting insight because there was something about that market for those shoes that attracted a different customer than what they were projecting. And no one was even looking at it because it was this little piece of data in the corner of the database report that no one, you look at it and you go, well, that's just politics. I don't want to touch that. And it was the first thing I looked at. I'm like, well, OK, this is nothing but opportunity because now you can do some testing and you can see, OK, if we actually reframe our products a little bit to appeal to our more conservative customer in a non, you know, non confrontational way, nothing to do with politics. Right. Then you can see if you can get greater efficiencies because when you don't align with your market, It creates a headwind. The customer senses that the product is not as good a fit in their life, right? Because it's all about their personal values, how they see the world. So it's now the business's job, if they're open to this idea, to bend the business so that the product will fit in their world. And this can be done with digital media, all sorts of media in a very segmented way. And the testing can be relatively straightforward.

So what do you think would be the most important lesson that you have learned along the way and what do you think you need to teach going forward, especially with the buzzword of AI?

So a couple of things on that front. The first one is to think about this topic in a very dispassionate way. And for some people, that's going to be difficult, right? But if it's through the lens of your business growth and analyzing markets and analyzing customers, it becomes a little easier because it becomes about solving a business objective and not a personal objective. So the first big thing is to look at this in a dispassionate way, use evidence, use research, and use a practical framework like what's outlined in the book, Red and Blue Customers, to assess the situation. But then with AI, what's interesting about AI in this mix is that you need a dispassionate reference point to help shape your communications. So I've been a writer for a long time. I started my career as a copywriter. And when I look at how AI can take a set of distinct values of customers who don't represent me and craft communications for them, I'll look at the result and I'll have the same reaction every time. which is, wow, I never would have written that knowing about this product. I never would have said this, but I totally get it. I get how this is now framed to fit more in the world of a different customer. And it becomes this recognition of, you know what, the United States, the world is a pluralistic collection of different kinds of people who see the world differently. And that's how we have to execute marketing now. So it's to fit into a lot of smaller worldview markets and not just say, OK, we have the answer for everybody. It's almost like getting away from a broadcast model toward one where you recognize that there are people very different from you who think about things different from you and who could actually help you grow your business quite nicely. And AI is really interesting for that. It becomes this Because AI has no worldview in and of itself. I think in the beginning, there were some interesting stories about how maybe it skewed liberal, and there was some pretty good evidence for that. But I think it's a very good tool in this particular application, which is why we use it at the company Lifeline.ai.

So when you speak about drilling down to, let's say a specific item. So I'm toying with something here that you sparked. I'm drilling down to a particular item. I mean, it could be this glass bottle of water. A bottle of water. But glass, right? Why would people, if you can answer that, why would somebody choose glass instead of plastic and the glasses more expensive. I mean, I'm just showing that. Yeah.

Well, if I were selling glass water bottles, I would look at, okay, well, who's buying them? Are they more liberal or conservative? What are their values? But it's, you know, and I think then you can determine then you can start to get to some reasons why. Like, is it because of some specific, is it because there's something innovative about the glass? I'm making this up. I mean, that might sound crazy. It's fine. Yeah. Or that it's, you know, it's not plastic, so it's going to be, you know, better for the environment. But, you know, when it comes to the environment, it's, you know, I think there's a misconception that only liberal people are concerned about the environment. It's just not true. There's a strong majority of Americans who care about the environment. And I think that the politicians tend to work that issue. They tend to oversimplify it. But let's say you have a bottle of water. It's almost as near a generic product as you can think of, like a bar of soap or something. Well, now you can take that same bottle of water and frame it for either audience in a way that will make it fit their lives better. So the same bottle of water, you might talk about it as having some kind of innovation, whether it's the filtration of the water or something new and exciting or how the bottle's made. You could show people who are highly expressive using it in terms of the branding. You can think about the bottle of water as helping a customer win through interdependence. Now, let's contrast that with the same bottle of water, and we're going to frame it now for a more conservative customer group. Now, we're going to say, no, this bottle of water has been around a while. You should trust it. It's got a lot of social proof. Here are people like you who are using it today. And it's very reliable. It's going to help you. It's going to help you in a very reliable way. And in terms of helping you win, it's going to empower your own personal responsibility as opposed to the interdependence. And that's one contrast in the values of selling into the two different groups. So, and it can even go to celebrities like celebrity spokespeople who then endorse that bottled water. So, you know, I, I'd been involved in a lot of, you know, celebrity selection for various advertising campaigns. And I can tell you the analysis is often, I don't know, it's kind of, it's a bit instinctual, you know, it's like, who's going to be a good fit for the brand, which is just kind of code for who do we like. And I got to tell you, you can pick the wrong celebrity for your market really easily. So if it's a Hollywood celebrity, an actor or singer with some kind of association that way, believe me, your conservative customers are just going to tune out. Now, if you have a football quarterback or someone from the military or a business person, that's a whole other story for more conservative customers. And interestingly, football which is a sport that unites both groups. Because, I mean, it's why the Super Bowl is so popular. It's because both groups watch almost equally. It actually skews, according to Morning Consult, skews slightly liberal, which might surprise some people. But teamwork is an interesting concept because liberal customers tend to believe more in interdependence and conservative customers tend to believe more into a hierarchical structure and something, you know, something with greater structure. And you can see both of those things in sport and especially in football. So it's it's I think it's there's two different interpretations sometimes of those sports. And and the same thing happens with celebrities. And I, you know, I can think back to campaigns I've been involved with where we got it dead wrong for the market, quite honestly, and the results were not that good.

Which brings me to another question, I'll just say, how do you measure success in your work?

Well, you measure success by, you know, ultimately the objective is to improve fit between your product and your market. So what that's going to do is it's going to... The way you're going to measure that is through customer acquisition cost, customer value, and how efficient your advertising is. So let me give you an example. I was talking to... My accountant at one point is quite liberal. And I was telling him about a Super Bowl ad for WeatherTech, which makes the rubber mats for cars. And they've had Super Bowl ads for a number of years. And clearly, not as recently, but over the years, they had quite conservative-looking spots with militaristic figures descending on suburban homes and installing mats in cars. And the founder's quite conservative, runs a very successful business. And I was talking to my rather liberal accountant and I said, I was telling him about the spot and he said, yeah, I remember that TV spot. And I remember thinking, that's just not for me. And I said, yeah, but you own a car, don't you? And he goes, yeah, I own a Subaru. And I said, well, of course you do. But you can tell, but that's the kind of dynamic that happens, right? When he said that phrase, That wasn't really for me, even though he had a car that could take a rubber man. That's the reaction you get when you don't align as well with these two groups. It becomes kind of like a headwind. It's not going to make anyone mad. The TV ad didn't make him mad. It just faded into the background. So to your question about measurement of success, it's really about improving efficiencies of your marketing investment. I mean, we all have limited resources, right? We want to make every dollar go as far as possible. And this is a strategic exercise that doesn't cost anyone anything. and can improve efficiency. So whether it's your digital media returning, lower cost per visit, or lower cost per acquisition. The only caveat to all of that goes back to who adopts early products and who adopts them later. Liberal customers, lower cost per acquisition, whether you're trying to get them into a store or trying to get them to a website, because they will switch brands more easily. They like to experiment. They like to, again, it goes back to designing a better future. Well, as a result, they're going to have lower customer value because they're going to present more churn in your customer database, whereas conservative customers are proven in research to be happier with products, stick with brands longer, and therefore have higher customer value. Now, they will have higher cost per acquisition to get them. Because you might say, OK, I'm just going to go get conservative customers because they'll stick with me. They will cost you more to get, but once you get them, they will stick with you. So it's this interesting mix of both, but it really depends on your market. And if your market, like an example would be this fitness company that we've been working with, their product leans into building strength. And we ran a study and we asked the two groups, liberal and conservative customers, what their preference was. Was it more fitness or was it more strength? Okay, which is kind of an interesting distinction. And liberal customers were proven to prefer fitness twice as much as conservative customers. And conservative customers preferred strength twice as much, more than twice as much as fitness, if you just said the word fitness. And this product that this company has is really fundamentally about building strength. It's really about muscle workouts. And their customers are overwhelmingly conservative. I'm not saying they're far right. There's just a lot more conservative customers than there are liberal customers. And so then it's like, OK, how do we align even more with this group? Like, how do we how do we even bring in some themes that will even make that stronger? Right. Without and again, if you do it with values and worldview, you won't. disenfranchise the liberal customers that are buying from you. You're going after a market that is certainly big, because both groups in the United States are huge markets. The country, the world is split down the middle. And if each of the two markets was a country, it would be the 10th largest in the world. So you don't have to worry about appealing to both equally. And that generally doesn't exist today.

So you would say there would be some sort of pathway or roadmap that somebody would have to take those steps to be successful in terms of how they target those particular customers?

Yeah, so I'll outline the process real quickly. It's detailed in the book, Red and Blue Customers. But the first step is to develop what we call a worldview brief. And that's basically asking the question, are my customers more liberal or conservative? You just got to go find out. You might send them a survey. You can just ask them in an email survey, quite honestly. You can ask them directly? Yeah, but you don't say Democrat or Republican. The way you ask it is, and I've done this many times, you say it's and it's usually part of a bigger survey. It's not just by itself, but it says, hey, do you happen to be liberal or a little liberal or a little conservative or conservative without an option in the middle? Because if you give people neither as an option, they'll pick that even though it's not true. Because the research is clear that people have generally sorted themselves into one group or the other. There are a lot of moderates. Certainly, I mean, a strong majority of Americans are moderate. I'm not saying they're all hyper-liberal or hyper-conservative. But that's pretty good. So you just ask them. And then you have to look at your market. and try best you can to figure out, well, is it more urban? Is it more ex-urban or rural? Which helps guide you to figure out, is it more liberal or conservative? Are the two fitting? You can even come up with a competitive advantage. If you have a big competitor who appears to be going after one market with how they're projecting their business, you could go after the other and you won't compete with them. and which would be an interesting strategy. So you do that. Then there's this menu of values. There's 27 of them. I mentioned several that are in the book. They're detailed with all the citations to all the research. And you can pick like five or seven of those that fit your product, your industry, your business, whether it's exploration or innovation or the influences, the visual styles. I mean, there's all kinds of distinctions. And then you apply it to the business. You say, OK, this is like a filter for my strategy. And it can affect your marketing. It can affect your distribution. It can affect the products you develop, how you design the products. It can provide, it provides inputs into all these processes. But the first step, as I said, is who are your customers and what does your market look like from the standpoint? And then can you simply go down a path of creating greater fit?

Is there any particular project, I mean, you don't have to say the name or anything like that, that's really exciting you right now, coming that you think it's the wave of the future?

Well, I think the more we see the involvement of AI in this topic. What was interesting was the book came first. I developed the book. I get so excited. I'm not going to write a book about this because we all need to know this. We walk down the street, we see this stuff, but we don't apply it to our business. The anecdote I give people, especially if you're in an urban environment, is drive two hours. Do you feel like you're on a different planet? Why do you feel like you're on a different planet? Well, the clothing that people are wearing, the restaurants they're going to, the products, the cars, and the driveway. Well, that's all stuff people buy. So the book came first. And then my business partner and I realized that AI was the way to bring this to life. And I think that's the exciting part of it. That's like when we see how AI reveals how to market to these very specific segments. And in our business at Lifemind it's not just liberal and conservative, it's actually generational values and regional values throughout the country. So it's three dimensions. But the worldview values as liberal or conservative are very important because quite honestly, they're brought to the surface almost every day by the news media, by the politicians. It's hard to avoid it. And I think all of that amplifies things. But I think this is where AI is that dispassionate voice that can help you shape your business in a manner that creates greater fit between your product and your market.

I'm going to put you on the spot. What would you think would be your perfect customer to come on board with Lifeline.AI?

Well, we think the application of this to retail and franchise businesses is extremely strong because when you think about planning locations, if it's physical retail, then this is a dimension that's typically not used very much. I mean, maybe it is somewhere, I've yet to see it. I mean, even at Procter & Gamble, I spoke to someone who worked there and I said, you guys must consider this. He goes, no, we don't, we don't look at that. I'm like, that's amazing to me. So I think what retail and franchise businesses can do is look at where does their footprint sit relative to more liberal and conservative areas. And that's easy to figure out. It's simple geography. And then look at, does that help explain the differences in product consumption within the retail? Does it help explain the relative success of different locations as it relates to maybe the retail brand itself? Because if you take Target, for example, Target was founded by a very liberal founder, liberal family in Minnesota. tends to project fairly liberal values. And lo and behold, they've got a retail footprint that skews liberal, but it's got a lot of conservative areas in their footprint, which can then create some issues for them. And so I think this becomes a new insight. And this is what makes it so exciting. It's like a It's a new insight that doesn't cost anything, really, that you can use to optimize your business. And it's not every day that there's a new dimension to your customer that you can take advantage of. Just like, oh, is it male or female or wealthier or less wealthy or different parts of the country? So I think that type of business is actually, these types of businesses already know their differences from area to area. And it's a question of explaining it and then taking the insights and optimizing the entire business for it. Oh, great.

And just switching gears a bit, what do you hope your legacy will be in your field?

Well, so there's an X factor to all of this, which I did not anticipate, which I now find incredibly interesting, which is when you when you study these two groups through a business lens and through solving a business objective, you end up learning a lot about that other side, whatever side that is. And they tend to become more coherent they tend to become more rational within their own worldview. And there becomes this recognition that it's just a different way of seeing the world. And it's like, and what that does to you personally, is it just takes temperature down. Okay? Because there's clear research that says that, you know, if you don't know someone very well, you tend to think negatively of them. And through this work, you have to study both sides. You have to study the values of both. And you gain this great appreciation for just how the two groups work together. And so to your question, I think the best outcome of all of this would be to show how the two groups can coexist extremely well and even be complimentary in a lot of instances. You know, I mentioned sales and marketing. It goes beyond that. You know, the market dynamic, you know, early adopters, late adopters. The two groups strike me as incredibly complimentary as opposed to against each other in looking at all the research, which I know sounds crazy, you know, given everything you see in the news. But to me, that is an outcome. The recognition of that becomes quite powerful.

Amazing stuff. Just to go on your personal interests, outside of work, what are some of your hobbies or interests? I see a bunch of books behind you, so I guess you like to read, right?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, reading and writing is fine. I mean, writing has always been enjoyable, but personally, cycling and sailing are the two things I enjoy, because I discovered that as you age, you can keep doing them. I chose golf.

Yeah, that's right. What about your family? I mean, your wife, kids?

Yeah, so my wife and I just moved to Milan, and she's helping set up a new school here, and that's why I'm here. And so I work remotely. Yeah, yeah. And our kids are back in the United States on the East Coast and West Coast. So it's an exciting time. And it's interesting to see the difference in culture here. And quite honestly, the red-blue distinction is all over the world. Milan, like San Francisco, is a very liberal place because it's an urban center. And you don't have to drive far to see the change.

In terms of your book, Red and Blue Customers, where can we obtain a copy?

Yeah, so the easiest place is Amazon. It's available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble, and soon on Apple Books. But yeah, it's on Amazon globally. And I think people will be pleasantly surprised by what they learn from it. You won't get much politics out of it in spite of the title, which you will get. What you will get are insights about customers.

I'll be sure to pick up a copy because you've enticed me big time when it comes to retail. Great. That's great.

Well, I enjoyed writing it very much and I've had very good feedback from it. So I hope you enjoyed it.

If you enjoyed it, that means the passion in this, your passionate energy is injected into the book, right?

Yes.

Yes.

Hopefully. Hopefully I was able to accomplish that.

Yes. So where can my listeners or customers find Lifemind.ai? Yeah.

So you can, if anyone wants to reach out, contact me through the contact form at Lifemind.ai. And even if there are listeners who are curious whether or not their customers are more liberal or conservative and are having a hard time determining that, we'll run that analysis for them for free. We'll actually do that using no sensitive customer data at all. It's like we look at zip codes, customer accounts by zip code, and we're interested in seeing who's interested in that, and we'd be happy to do that for your listeners. That's difficult. You just gave away one of your secrets there. Well, it's what keeps it so simple. We live in a world where you have to be very protective of customer data, and I agree with that. But it can also slow you down as a business in terms of getting insights. So we specifically built our system around just the good old five-digit zip code because it could be more nimble and get you, and it's good enough. That's the key thing. It's good enough for doing this kind of analysis.

Okay, fantastic. Well, Chris, this has been great, informative, educational, great energy, great passion. Anything else you would like to share before we close up?

No, I think we've covered everything, including the X factor, which I don't always get to get into. But yeah, I encourage people to just take the first step and ask the first question. Are my customers a little bit more liberal or conservative? And that's the starting point. And it just becomes an interesting journey.

Well, thank you very much. I believe that our listeners would love this content. And, you know, I am guessing that we can work together on something as well. That would be great.

Yeah. And thank you for having me as a guest. I've enjoyed the conversation.

You're always welcome to come back if you have something you want to do in the future. It's fine. Have a great day. Sounds great. Thank you.

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